Service, Supportiveness, Expectations, and "Being good enough"

So I'm on the road. I get to have my fantasies. Based on my beloved's comments at our last check-in, I fantasize the following:

How about if at our check-in, it is my responsibility to list all the things I'm supposed to do for her today. And because it's my fantasy, I get to say that it's only the non-regular-household stuff that get's listed. Or maybe that stuff get's listed in a separate category, like "being a good husband." [Of course, reflection reveals that these categories aren't as different as they might seem, but I think I'd still distinguish them as below, as a first cut.]

It's just the kind of ritual that I think I like - and might actually hate. And, I'm learning, might actually have trouble doing with a straight face. Unless she cares about it. But wait, that's getting ahead of myself.

I wonder how she would react to a formula like the following:

When you let me serve you, it means to me that you love me, and that's important to me. I appreciate it that you let me

• Paint your toe-nails
• Shave your legs
• Trim your hair
• Check-in with your after work
• Meet you when you arrive home
• Give you foot rubs
• Give you back rubs
• Recite this list for you every night
• Get your permission before going to bed

Thank you for letting me ... whatever it was that she let me do, personal service wise, that day. On days when that's nothing, I guess I'd say the honest thing, which is "I'm sorry there was nothing I could do for you, but thank you for expecting me to do this ritual; it's important to me."

That's a good moment to bring up things like: "I'd like to paint your toenails soon; I think they need it" or "I'd like to shave your legs soon, I think they need it." The point of that is to address what's happened occasionally recently: I don't suggest those kinds of things in a timely enough manner, and she does them when she decides they're needed. To me, that's an "I screwed up" moment, and I really really need to know that she cares about them. Not necessarily in a "You need to come here right now and do that" kind of way (which I'd love, but what if I'm out), but in a "I'm disappointed you're more in to your fantasy than the reality of this" kind of way.

I don't think I've written about the idea of not being allowed to come to bed, but being required to sleep on the floor at her side of the bed. The kind of thing that sounds trememdously sexy but would become tremendously tedious in about 1/2 hour, I think. Since that consequence would so quickly follow the night-time disclosure, I would love to try it. I mentioned it to my beloved, and she explicitly wasn't repulsed by the idea, but if she were ever to actually do it, I'd be stunned.

The second half of the evening's recitation would go:

As an attentive husband, you have the right to expect that I will make your life as easy as I can by making it so you don't have to worry about routine things like

• Making coffee in the morning
• Making sure your cell phone is charged
• Making sure your wallet has money it in
• Making sure the random receipts are out of your wallet
• Paying the bills
• Taking out the trash
• Doing the dishes
• Caring for the animals
• Putting our your vitamin
• Doing the laundry
• Making sure the floors are swept
• Making sure the counters are clean
• Making sure the cars are maintained
• Mowing the lawn

I know the following need to be done, and I'm planning to do them on...

Is there anything you noticed today that I should have done, or anything you did today that you'd rather not have had to?

And at that point, we get to have the conversation about our days.

I'd love for her to attach a consequence to failure - either things I should have done or things she had to do. Things I should have done(or things she did, some of them): do (or re-do) them now, before coming to bed, for example. Or not-being-able-to-come-to-bed time. Or anything. Anything that says, "We're doing this and I care enough to want to motivate you to do better."

This whole thing is a psychological drama, I know, and writing this post reminds me that one of my psychological prime-movers is "Not good enough." And this all plays with that dynamic in, I think, a positive way, because it's acknowledged and explicit, as it has never been before. If, as I intellectually but not emotionally believe, I am in fact "good enough" I'm hoping that playing with this dynamic will get me to a place where I do emotionally believe that. I'm not sure how, I'm not sure what would happen to all this if I got there. But this feels like a way of finding out.

On the Road Again....

No, I didn't kill my blog, and no, we didn't give up on our WLM. I'm just went on the road for a couple of weeks. But the weeks prior to that were kind of interesting, and being on the road always gives me time to reflect, so here's where I think I am.

First off, my beloved asked me what we should do in the time I'm away. I pointed out that I'm still wearing the necklace, and that means what it means (see this post if you're new to the story). But that beyond that, I couldn't think of much. I suppose - I know - if she had suggested something, I would have lept at it. But it seems pointless to me to say "It would mean a lot to me if you could arrange it so that it meant a lot to you for me to ..." What means a lot to her means a lot to her, and I think there are only very limited ways in which we can grow towards a more satisfying collection of things that mean a lot to both of us.

That having been said, I think we have some opportunities to refine our communication in ways that will benefit both of us. Our nightly "check ins" have devolved into "how was your day." Which is still very satisfying, and reminiscent of the so-far solitary post at the nascent Whipped Into Shape blog. And is particularly satisfying when she leaves me kneeling beside the bed while she finishes whatever it is that she's doing - but which has only happened for about 30 second or so - but what a 30 seconds of contemplation they were.

I've been on the road a week now, and the leaving was somewhat hectic, but one detail I remember from our last check-in could have knocked me over with a feather: I was talking about how I didn't feel like I'd been living up to my commitments to her, and she alluded to how she has been bringing things in from the car when she arrives home - one of the things I said I'd do for her.

It turns out that this was as much from a lack of communications on our part as anything else. She said, "I don't know whether to tell you to come over when I arrive home, or what. I just figured you were busy." I've said before, and I'll say again, that I do not intend to be one of those submissives who falls down on his responsibilities just to see if my beloved is paying attention. But what I did respond with was, "Gee, I didn't think that you thought about this during the day. I still have this impression that the entire arrangement is distasteful to you and you want to put it out of your head." To which she replied, "No, I think about it occasionally during the day."

Holy smokes. There's lots to work with there.

In the doldrums

Well, it is summer, so I guess doldrums aren't too unusual. But they're still not fun.

Thanks for suggestions about how to approach my beloved in this "getting home late" issue. In the event, the question never happened and the conversation never happened, but for a modestly encouraging reason.

I called her on the phone to ask about this as she was going to leave before I got home, and as I was working up to the question - which I think was going to be along the lines of #5 below - "Can I go to bed before you arrive?", she said, "I don't have time to talk to you now. Goodbye."

She refers to this as "mean, arbitrary capriciousness." I'm thrilled. It's the second time she's done something like that, and I'm working to convince her that it isn't "mean." But as a "good girl", I'm pretty sure that anything that sounds to her like putting her own needs first (or even recognizing her own needs before the pain becomes extreme) feels "arbitrary and capricious" or even "mean" to her. She said, "if we do this, you're going to see more the mean side of me." I'm encouraging her to do more of that, not because I want her to be mean and capricious, but because I think she really needs to explore getting her needs met, and doing so will give me more of an opportunity to serve her.

I know that "mean" wouldn't work in the long run, but if we have to pass through "mean" for her to find herself, I can be very patient with that.

And though I don't think I'd be able to stand "thoughtless and capricious", I think I'd love "teasing [and I don't necessarily mean sexually] and capricious" or any kind of "I'm-in-a-relationship-with-you-but-I-get-to-do-what-I-want-and-you-love-it capricious" - basically, any kind of capricious that acknowledges that we're in a relationship characterized by power exchange.

That all being said, thinks are pretty low right now, wife-led-marriage-wise.

Yes, I'm doing what I'm doing.

But I think our evening ritual needs to be fine-tuned because I, for one, am not getting enough sleep, and neither, I think, is she. This is something to do with going to bed late (duh!), which I fear is motivated by not wanting to talk about the WLM. Which makes me really tired, which makes it hard to do this. If I were cynical, I'd say she was doing it so we'd fail; if I were deluded, I'd say she's doing it to make it harder for me so I can prove that I really want to do this. But I actually think it's avoidance.

And I'm realizing that without some input from her acknowledging that we're doing this, and having that acknowledgment be part of everyday life, I don't think I can do this. Gee, sounds like At All Times and Jane from SheIsInCharge. Gee, are we back to Give the Dog a Bone?

Or maybe I just need to get more exercise and a couple of good nights' sleep.

How Complicated We Make Things

So she's going to be out tonight. And I don't get to come to bed until she invites me in. Do I

1. Not mention anything and just hang around the living room until she gets back
2. Not mention anything and just go to bed
3. Not mention anything and sleep on the floor until she arrives
4. Say something casual like, 'Should I wait up for you?'
5. Say something explicit like 'May I go to bed before you arrive?'

Numbers 2 and 3 seem manipulative to me, so they're out.

Number 5 risks the "rolling her eyes and 'give it a rest'" type reaction. But it also is the honest explicit question, and does give her the opportunity to say "Yes" or "No" clearly, and gives me the opportunity to submit to whichever she says (which I know would be "yes" and I'd be disappointed - that's my challenge).

Number 1 seems the worst - no opportunity for her to 'disappoint' me by saying 'Yes, go to bed', but no opportunity to say that this is not a game and we're actually doing something. The cowards way out, I think.

Number 4 is the low-risk way of asking. But I think too "low risk" - if she says "Nah, don't bother" then I have no idea if she's acknowledging this WLM power exchange thing or not.

So after writing all this, I'm leaning towards number 5. Stay tuned.

In other news, last night she let me rub her feet. Yippee. It was very fun. She was reading and we were talking (philosophy of science, if you must know). Not kinky, not excessively "subby" as she likes to put it. Just fun. I did let her know that I would enjoy doing this any time. I was stunned when she asked. No time limit, just as long as she wanted. I forget what she said when she was done, but it was nice being in the space where I would have just gone on doing that.

Oh, and she asked me what I wanted for my birthday. In the past, I've always fantasized about something kinky - being denied sex for a few weeks and orgasm as birth present, or a chastity belt, or getting pegged, etc. Knowing that this could never ever happen. Now that it could, I was kind of speechless. I don't have a specific "stuff" that I want, but I don't know what kind of "kink" I'd ask for if she felt she wanted to give it to me as a present. I did acknowledge this to her. Still don't know what, if anything I'll ask for.

Life is good.

Work and Play

There seem to be two kinds of activities in our arrangement: things that my beloved has been doing that make our household run, and things that I can do for her. I've mentioned this before, I know. But now that we've been living with our arrangement for a while, I want to reflect just a little on them.

Prominent among these reflections is wondering what in fact the distinction is between a hen-pecked husband and service-oriented wife-led marriage. Distressingly little, it seems to me. As far as I can tell, the sine-qua-non that distinguishes them is the woman's acknowledgment of the arrangement and her communication of that to her husband. I'm sure these two sides of the balance have been juxtaposed before, but I don't recall having seen that in a post.

To be clear: Unless she explicitly agrees "Yes, we're doing this," and unless the couple together comes up with ways of communicating to the husband, "You're doing this because we're in a wife-led marriage", then I don't think one can distinguish a WLM from a hen-pecked husband.

Wow - I'm not prone to absolute statements, and I certainly wouldn't defend that one to the death, but without those two things, it's hard for me to imagine how this could work in the long term.

So the fact that I'm paying bills at 11:00 at night, when I'd rather be reading or sleeping is work. Doing the laundry at 7:00 in the morning is work. Both become play when/if/were-she-to acknowledge that that's why I'm doing it.

Frankly, I can't make any useful progress on the question of why I shouldn't just be doing these things regardless, just to be a considerate spouse. I can see no logical reason why I should get "service" credit for doing these things, when they just need to be done. To her credit, when I mentioned this yesterday during our evening check-in (me kneeling by the bed before being given permission to enter - favorite moment of my day - how pathetic is that?) my beloved said, "You're doing this so I don't have to, and that counts for me." I guess I'll take that.

How will I know that we've "gotten there?" - to a WLM? OK, I acknowledge that it's all about process. VeezKnight said it better than I could, over on She Makes The Rules (though the link to the posting won't come up unless you have an account - get one, it's worth it). But I'll know that we're walking down this road when my beloved says to me, "Why didn't you ..." during one of our nightly check-ins. Or "You need to ..." about something I haven't gotten to. Basically, when the expectation is there, and there's a consequence for not meeting the expectation.

And frankly, we're getting there. Sunday night, I was exhausted and I thought I had covered all the bases when a voice rang out from the bathroom: "Hey, where's my vitamin?" Oops. I'm supposed to do that. But she bought my silver-tongued excuse about being tired.

And then we were on the phone while she was out of town; I was eating dinner. Sometimes our conversations are good and sometimes they're strained. Strained, in this case. Which she finished off by something like "I don't want to be listening to you chew, goodbye." It was kind of peevish and I was a little ticked off. Next morning she called to apologize (that was nice), and said "If you're asking me to be capricious, you're probably going to get some 'mean' as well." Could have knocked me over with a feather: She was thinking about this. First time I can remember that happening (which is maybe why I need to blog more often).

I said that was totally OK, and reiterated it last night at our nightly check-in: distinguishing "mean" from "capricious" and learning how to do what she's comfortable with is going to be a task for her; she's always been the "please others" sort. I told her I was happy to be part of that process and if it seriously wasn't working over the long term, we'd talk about it. I hope (and think) she took that to heart.

The challenge for me: last night I said I was coming to bed, and she said she'd be in shortly. But she got involved in a movie. I wasn't going to bug her by going back and saying "What about me, I'm exhausted." Inspired, perhaps, by Her Knight, I thought to myself, "This is what you wanted. She's doing what she wants to do and you're waiting for her convenience." So I sat on the floor beside the bed and dozed for a half hour until she came to bed. And thanked her for doing so. She seemed a little ambiguous over whether she decided watching the whole rest of the movie would have brought her to bed too late, or whether she was concerned about me. But I think that means she thought about it and decided that I could wait. If that's true, that's wonderful.

So what do I need? Isn't that that constant refrain of the submissive husband trying to seduce his wife into a WLM? Acknowledgment and communication. And, as I read this, we do seem to be getting there.

It's all about the journey. Right.

What's Possible?

I love AAT's blog SheIsInCharge for its unstinting look at the successes and challenges of bring and FLR into an existing marriage. In "Despite much advice and discussion", he talks about the frustrations of feeling half-way to an FLR - much satisfying activity in the bedroom and occasional expressions of FLR outside the bedroom, but nothing consistent enough to feel satisfying to him.

I'm afraid I left him a rather flip comment about his ambiguity as to what is enough, but thought that he deserved a fuller comment.

Over at subservire - Diary of a Female-Led Husband, subservire has given up on an FLR. While the whole story isn't relevant here, his valedictory post (with comments, here) is worth a read.

And now I find that I'm in an ambiguous place with the FLR my beloved and I are exploring. I think there are common themes from all three of these things. I hope I can find them.

Regarding AAT's sense that whatever is happening is not enough, I think that we who are pursuing FLRs are doing so for some reason - a reason that isn't, I think, directly related to the FLR itself. The way I characterize it is that we're trying to scratch some itch. The "Female superiority" crowd deals with this by asserting that there's an objective reality that says that women are superior to men, so FLRs would be the natural order of things - it has nothing to do with they themselves. Maybe that works for them, it doesn't work for me, so I can't go there.

For me, we're trying to build relationships that work. I need to serve my beloved for a number of reasons, some of which I understand and some of which I don't. But honestly, it's about how I feel. Total contrary to the "ideology" of the FLR but true. If it were all about how my beloved felt, we wouldn't be doing this at all.

So what makes me feel better? Her allowing me to serve her. Her telling me what to do. Her wanting me to be lusting after her.

How does she know that these things make me feel better? If I don't tell her, there's no way. But if doing these things is offensive to her, then we have a problem. If doing these things is a chore for her, then, as someone who wants me to be happy, she'll indulge in them for me. But the addiction metaphor AAT uses in his post is apt: I'll want more and more of that drug until I drive her away. Not a good plan.

Only by finding things that work for her and work for me do we get to a place where our FLR is viable.

We're not there yet.

As Subservire puts it,

Forget the advice of the female supremacists who espouse that the way to a successful female led marriage is to give yourself to the Domme totally with no regard to your own wishes. It simply doesn’t work that way.

Most submissive men have a sexual desire to be submissive. Unless that sexual desire – or need - is met, very few men are happy to simply cook, clean and concede for their wives or partners.

Again, it's the mutuality that is missing.

He's pretty pessimistic about this working out for him. I've read his post over and over again trying to pick out the relevant threads of the argument, and I think it comes down to four (very good, IMHO) points:

• Most male submissive's submissiveness revolves around their sexuality
• Most males aren't "service submissives" where the serving itself is the end
• Most women are happy to have "their guy" do more around the house and dote on them in some ways
• Most women aren't (and don't want to be) sexually dominant in the way most submissive men fantasize about

Regarding this list point, "P" (the dominant wife of femdomwife.blogspot.com) describes a woman's approach to a d/s relationship as very different from a man's:

a D/S relationship is often far out of the context of how you might normally think of approaching and evolving within a relationship. I think women inherently come to the relationship table with needs and perspectives which are very different from their male counter parts; namely that they want an over the top romantic version of reality, a manly man to take care of them (in all senses of the word), to be adored, cherished for all time, the list goes on and on....

Dunno. This isn't hanging together as well as I had hoped it would. But I thought subservire's comments were distressingly relevant.

More later on Work and Play.

Unexpected Chords

Every once in a while, a post from someone whose life and relationship is quite unlike mind nonetheless strikes a chord. That's why FemDomWife.BlogSpot.com, by P and her submissive husband M, and why FDHouseHusband.BlogSpot.com have links from my sidebar.

And it was M who wrote about punishment in Punishment Resumed that struck and unexpected chord. I should mention that the whole conversation with my beloved in my previous post took place before I had read M's post. His relationship to punishment bears no relationship to my desires, and indeed, my beloved and I have raised two spectacular kids (OK, we're biased...) who didn't know the meaning of the word punishment until they heard it in school. There were consequences and expectations, but punitive punishment was just never something we needed to have. YMMV.

So when my beloved mentioned the word "consequences" in connection with our assessment of what happened yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised.

And late the evening, when I thought about what would motivate me to to serve her, I realized that the kind of consequences we had talked about would in fact serve some purpose - to provide that extra "kick" when things get tough.

So I do find some commonality with M's thoughts on this after all.

This is what life looks like...

Much water over the dam since my last post, including a week at a family retreat center we've been going to for years, and now some time at an extended-family vacation. So I'm not going to try to maintain narrative continuity, but thought I'd write up the random thoughts that occur to me.

The one I'm craziest about is that this woman loves me to a fault, I think. This morning in bed we were chatting and I appreciated the fact that she's doing this even though it means something so much different to her than to me. She talked about how it is important to her that I be happy and that if we can find a way to do that that works for her, why not?

At another point over the last several days, she said, "I'm not making this easy for you, am I?" And she meant it in the best possible way: challenging me to do the things I said I'd do, without nagging me to do them. Nagging me would be totally contrary to the point. But the absence does does make it harder. A total absence of feedback would make it impossible. But more on that in a minute.

Yesterday was a day in which I did nothing and things fell apart. That was the impetus for our conversation this morning. I guess I needed to feel tired and depressed. At the end of our day, she tell asleep and immediately went to bed. I followed sometime later, but she was asleep - no opportunity for our nightly ritual where I kneel naked by the bed and we discuss how our arrangement is going.

That nightly ritual is the soul of what's making this work: feedback for me in a form that is not coercive and is comfortable for her. Only on this night I just fell in to bed. So it was the following morning - this morning - that we talked about how things were working.

She said that I had looked tired and needed to kick back. I said that the whole point of doing this is to do it at the hard moments, and that I felt I had failed rather totally yesterday. I wasn't overwrought about the not-checking-in part because life happens, and our arrangement needs to be flexible enough to deal with that. What I was over-wrought about (a little) was the fact that there was no overt sign from her that my slacking off made any difference to her.

We talked a little about what's important to each of us in why we do this - to me service and submission and surrender (gee, the three S'es). And to her helping me be happy. And being willing to pursue whether any of this could be interesting and useful for her. As she acknowledges that it could be, and to some extent is now. [Drat - there was something more too it, but I can't remember it exactly - I was after all 1/2 asleep]

In the end, I realized that the most effective way to deal with a day like that - in my minde, was to pick up on what Ms. Rika said in her book: losing the ability to serve her and losing her affection. I would hate that - not being able to serve her for a day, and not being able to be close to her for a day - to approach her for the little moments of affection throughout the day. Then I hesitated with something that was very fetishy but I guess I'm in the place where if I can't ask, I won't get. So I mentioned that sleeping on the floor beside her bed would be exciting for about 10 minutes, then a total hassle.

Much to my surprise, she didn't dismiss this out of hand, but net said, "Let's see how today goes."

And it has been a much better day. Mostly little things. Some weeks ago I had the opportunity to shave her armpits - what a hassle to do yourself, it was one of the most fulfilling things I've done. She was surprised, but allowed me to do so again today. And there were a handful of little things during the day. An amusing one (to me): she saw me eating something for lunch and said, "I'll have one of those" and got up to get it. DUH. I offered to get it for her. The little lightbulb went on and she said, OK.

On the other hand, earlier in the day, as I'd been making lunch, she said, "I'll have one of those" so I gave her one of me plate. That worked.

Overall it was a good day. A good day is one where I get to serve her. I like that.

A Little Reassessment

If we're doing this and it's what I want, how come I'm not happier?

Let's deconstruct that statement....

Are we doing this?

Is it what I want?

Am I happy?

Are we doing this? More deconstruction are we doing this? Pretty much, sorta. The comma is important. The major parameters are in place: I've committed to picking up much more of the work around the house, and I have been. There are a tiny, countable number of things that I can do for my beloved (as opposed to for the general running of the household), which are the thins I find most satisfying.

Is the "she" part of "we" doing this? Well, she's not not doing it - that is, she's willing to put up with me doing it, and she knows it's happening. I'm trying to be very conscious of those "We could do ..." or "We should ..." household-type things, and make sure they happen. She's not making it easy, being very subtle and non-directive about these things, but I'm trying.

We've done three evening check-ins, with me kneeling beside her after she gets in to bed, this being the gating item that has to happen before I can get in to bed. We have some logistical details to work out about that, but right now that part is working well enough.

The check-ins themselves are terrific, both in the satisfaction-for-me sense, and in the working-on-getting-this-right sense. I get to thank her for doing this, in a heartfelt and true way. I get to talk about what I've done for her, and we end up sharing our reactions about how this is feeling for both of us. If we're going to figure out if this can work for us, we're going to have to do that, so the fact that we're doing it every night is really constructive.

[Aside - 15 or so years ago when we tried something similar, the high point was a weekly ritual we did assessing how we were doing. Helped make that unsucessful attempt at least in to a positive learning experience rather than a resentful dud.]

The down-side of this is that I perceive of her body language and facial expression last night and to a lesser extent the night before, as being moderately put-out by the whole exercise. Sometimes I read her spectacularly wrongly, so I guess I have to ask about it tonight. Which is the great part about having these checkins.

I also said last night how much more I prefer doing stuff for her rather than stuff for the household (though I gladly do both). But in her way, she turned it around and said "That makes me feel like an uncreative lump since I have nothing that I want you to do for me." I actually think we both have issues there that we'll have to work on.

My fantasy is that we're in the "First we try, and then we trust" phase (to steal a quote from one of our favorite movies...), and that some time she'll start requesting/expecting more. But that could just be a fantasy.

She is concerned that I not take on more than is realistic. And, having paid a couple of bills last night (supposed to be my responsibility), she expressed some disappointment at my not having done it. It was clearly an effort for her, and I didn't say the right thing (dammit!) - which would have been "I'll try to be on top of that in the future," but rather something mealy-mouthed about how I wasn't sure how those worked. Oh well, learning experience for both of us, I guess.

Is it what I want?

I think so. Or rather, nothing in the experience so far makes me think it's not. I know I was hoping that it would decrease the distance between us that has grown up in 15 years of raising kids and being civicly active and having two lives. I'm not sure it's done that, or what the prospects are that it will, but there's nothing to indicate that it won't. Certainly it has at certain moments.

Do I regret the loss of control or autonomy? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Actually, that part seems like a mindfulness exercise in letting go of petty ego and trying to focus on what's really important. (Which is what I failed at doing when I responded to her comment on the bills - more room for improvement [grin]).

Am I happy?

Sometimes. I exercised my right to ask for permission to relieve myself sexually last night, and after an intimate several moments of consideration, she said "Yes." I realized that what I cherished was that intimacy, not the act it self. Which I didn't pass up anyway, but it was the first time I contemplated what I really wanted there.

I honestly also realized that for a number of reasons I've been reading way to much of this FLR blog/discusson board stuff during the workday. I think I've pretty much gone cold-turkey on that (except for posting during my lunch hour), and that feels good. Hard. Don't know whether I'll succeed over the long term (though being on vacation for a couple of weeks starting tomorrow should help - no blog updates then either, by the way). The web reading part has many of the hallmarks of addiction, which I don't like.

Hmmm... I was feeling pretty negative when I started this post, but reflecting on all this stuff, by now I'm feeling rather more positive. I'm still concerned that this is all just a vexatious hassle for my beloved. And I'm seriously considering letting her know about this blog, frankly so that I can let her know about SheMakesTheRules.com. If she chose to read it and engage with some of the women there, at least I think it might be helpful for her. But none of that till after vacation.

Positive Reenforcement

No, and not in a "Dommme-ly" "I-can-make-you-want-to-do-this" kind of way.

Only with the slowly dawning realization that every time I go to talk to my beloved about this, the conversation goes so much better than I expected. She is wonderful and loving and I'm incredibly appreciative.

As I implied in my last post, a conversation was in the offing. When nothing manifested by Sunday afternoon, I brought the subject up. We've both been incredibly busy and spent a surprising part of the day napping.

I started with "We need to find a time to talk about this stuff, and not during a walk." Which is where we've talked often in the past, but is an activity she likes, and which I don't want to 'pollute' with the idea that every time we go for a walk, we have to deal with "that..." And not right before we go to sleep, because we're too tired.

Coulda knocked me over with a feather when she said, "I've been thinking about this."

"You have???"

"I think before you come to bed, you should check in with me and tell me the things you've done for me today. That will remind me that we're doing this."

We had a long talk about my ambiguous feelings about "getting credit" for house work. And she said she understood them, and that perhaps in the future we would exclude them from the list, but for now, they should be included.

I said, "Jeez, if we're talking frankly about fantasies, can I do that naked at your bedside." She smiled indulgently and said "Yes."

We tried to line out the practicalities of things - what if she goes to bed before I'm ready (I drop what I'm doing and go up anyway, and afterwards leave the room to complete whatever's keeping me up) - what if I want to go to bed before she does (I ask if it's OK to go to bed, she either says 'Yes', or 'Wait a couple of minutes, I'm going too,' or 'Go and wait for me.') I'm sure we haven't covered everything, but we'll work it out in time.

And after watching some TV, she was tired and wanted to go straight to bed. So we did, though I scurried around doing a couple of chores before I went to the bedroom - in retrospect maybe I should have gone to the bedroom, done the whole ritual, and then done the chores. But we'll figure that stuff out.

Have I mentioned that I love rituals?

Have I mentioned that I really love rituals?

So I have great hopes for this.

On the other hand, I had great hopes for our "coming home" ritual, where I'd wait to be acknowledged by her, but that only worked out once in the last two weeks. I suggested that we really need to fine-tune that one for more situations. We agreed on the possibility of deferring conversations for up to 24 hours if the moment didn't seem right, so that's what we did with this subject.

Which is actually very liberating, because it gives me permission to bring it up again and not feel guilty about it.

I was actually pretty tired during our discussion and not feeling all obsessed and sub-ly, so it was a good moment to have the conversation.

In the event, the ritual last evening felt a little awkward, as well it might the first time through. But I appreciated her doing this all, listed to paltry things I had done yesterday for her, (though I forgot the project about getting the work-stains out of her slacks, which took a while; I'll have to get better at remembering). I also noted that this was also her opportunity for feedback to me, though she didn't have any, she didn't seem burdened by the concept.

Much to my surprise after the light turned out, I spent more than half an hour pleasuring her, at her express request and direction. Mistress Matisse has a riff somewhere on her blog about "Who's running the fuck?" - who's setting the timing and pace of intercourse. That has almost always been me in our relationship, even when I'm pleasuring her with no prospects for myself.

That definitely wasn't true last night, as she repeatedly told me to slow down. I was worried because in the past she's said that if things go on for too long, they're not fun for her, but I guess that was a long time ago...

I was concerned that we had sex after having these discussions because she felt it was "part of the package." But last nights was so "Her in charge" that I'm beginning to wonder if there's an alternate explanation - that she's really turned on by the whole thing. Seems too much to hope for, but a pleasant thought anyway.

So we'll see how things evolve with our new ritual, and our talk today about the "arriving home" ritual.

Life is good.

Back in the Saddle Again?

So today we were snuggling in bed and my beloved reached up and fingered the chain I wear as a commitment to not masturbating without her permission. I asked her if it meant anything to her, since we seem to have left all the FLR stuff behind.

She said she'd feel so betrayed if I cheated on her that way, because she'd feel like a fool - she believes that I will hold to this agreement because I said so. I was releived to hear that, since, after our last conversation, I was ready to belive that none of this made any difference at all to her.

I don't remember how the conversation went, but she (I think) said we'd have to do something about my list of obligations around the house, since she can't remember them. I was surprised because I didn't think we had an arrangement any more.

She commented that it had been a bad moment there, and not to read to much in to it.

I told her that the comment that kills me the most is when she's doing something that I am "supposed" to do, and I either thank her for it or try to help, and she says, "Oh, that's OK." That's the killer for me. If it's OK, then why the fuck am I trying to do it?

We talked about this some, and realized that my apologizing for not doing things doesn't work for her - it's an issue that I apologize too much, a character flaw on my part. I agreed, and said that I've been trying for "I'd like to do that" as a response to the observation that she's doing something I feel I should do. Or "I was intending to do that." We also identified three possible reactions of hers to that, each of which communicates better:

1) I want to do this, so I'm doing it

2) Good, then do it

3) I don't think so, or you would have done it. Go do something else.

This last is the "punishment" option - the not being able to serve her as the incentive to stay on top of things. I think we have more work to do around this - for example, I expect I'll mess up and apologize, since it is an ingrained habit. And while we never punished our kids, there were consequences for undesirable behavior. We haven't come up with any consequences for my behavior, so we may just not go that route, other than inability to serve.

We also realized that if we're going to do this, we need to talk about it a lot in the early stages, as we set our expectations and learn what works and what doesn't. I also commented that it becomes real when it is inconvenient - Her loving response is to say "Oh, you were tired, so I did it." While my response is to say, "I want you to remind me to do it, or tell me to do it even though I am tired." Her relaxing and my working is one of my little fantasies, and the small handful of times that that's happened have been very fulfilling.

So she did tell me to wash her feet which I gladly did. And later to shave her legs, which I gladly also did. At which point she indicated she wanted oral sex, which I also gladly performed - her with the comment "You could do that for hours" (which would please me just fine). No indication of sex for me, which is also fine. But I actually do worry that this is all about sex for her.

No question but that sex is involved, but "all about" would be skewing the thing a bit. We'll see how that evolves.

I mentioned that the idea is to help her feel entitled, which, just as apologizinging is a charcacter flaw for me, not feeling entitled is a character flaw for her - she's bad at asking for things. So in this way, we both work on ourselves.

Later in the day at a reception, I was happy to offer to get her wine and hors d'oeuvres. IT was a little thing, but satisfying.

We'll see where things go from here - perhaps a converastion during tomorrow's long car ride.
...
Here it is after tomorrow, so "perhaps not."

The total insanity of our lives has settled down a little bit for a couple of days. I will motivate a conversation about all this before the end of today - I need to know that the conversation we had a couple of days ago means something. And we'll see where that leads.

... About The Wife Whose Husband Though He Was A Chicken?

"Have you heard the one about the woman whose husband thought he was a chicken? She took him to a therapist who said he had a fool-proof way of curing the husband. The wife looked thoughtful for a moment and declined the offer. She said she didn't want to lose the eggs."

That was the story my beloved told me last saturday. We were in the middle of a typically stressful morning, this one involving a dying car. She broke down weeping and said that it was just impossible to do this, as it colored every conversation we had, even those about the practicalities of dealing with a dead car.

Which was ironic since FLR was the last thing from my mind at that moment.

But I said the only gentlemanly thing to say, which was, "Well, then forget about it." "But you'll be miserable, she said." I said, "We'll talk about it in a week or a month when it's a better moment."

And my little dream died.

So I wasn't a total jerk about it, and I said that I intended to keep doing the more around-the-house things that I should have been doing all along, but laundry became an "us" task instead of as much of a "me " task as she would let it be (which was never 100%). Ditto for bill paying and animal care and kitchen care. So we were pretty much back to status quo ante, with me picking up some of the slack that (frankly) had resulted from my having had a job with a long commute (but that was a long time ago).

You said what?

Father's day was busy, not with particularly celebratory events. The commemoration was low-key but satisfying around our house. But at the end of the evening, after cleaning up from the 25-person pot-luck event, I plopped on the couch beside my beloved and said, "I give up, I'm not doing a thing." And she said, "Is that an ultimatum or a request?"

What? You said what? I didn't even know how to take the question.

In the end, I replied, "A request." Seemed like the lesser of the two evils.

"Granted," she said.

Needless to say, I read beside her on the couch for a while, and then got up and put the laundry out to dry and finished the dishes.

I'm still trying to figure out what to make of that.

Give the Dog a Bone

I'd say our FLR is on hiatus. There are several reasons for this. Last Sunday we had this terrific discussion. I thought we had addressed a lot of stuff: the extent to which my beloved does and does not want anything to do with this, the need I have for some kind of acknowledgment that "something's happening here (even if) what it is ain't exactly clear..." and some little things we could do that might work for both of us.

It was a great talk. I'll probably post it because one of the things that has been helpful to me is to read real-life interactions between husbands and wives working this stuff out.

And then nothing happened. Nothing.

And I realized that I can do this with no feed-back for only so long.

So the things I've said I'm doing, I am certainly doing. It's a modest list, but it's keeping me busy, and I know that paying the bills is something she's really happy not to be doing. But the mind set is different (and perhaps mindset is everything). I'm doing this because I said I'd do it, not because I get a huge submissive buzz from it. Without feedback from her, without that vaunted "acknowledgment from a position of dominance," it's all in my head. And I don't get energy back from "it's all in my head."

About those things, there's nothing inherently submissive or FLR about them. A guy who's not a jerk would be doing as much as he can around the house. A guy who's not a jerk would be doing the laundry. A guy who's not a jerk would be paying the bills. A guy who's not a jerk would make sure that the kitchen is clean. So why am I trying to get "credit", consideration, a buzz, some kind of acknowledgment from her for doing all these day-to-day things. Doesn't seem very justifiable to me.

I guess that leaves the vitamins and the light, as tiny little symbols of the fact that perhaps something else is going on. But Tom Allen's comment was spot on: It may be that she really doesn't think about this stuff at all, and she's happier that way.

Tiny tiny little things - there's this gulf between the practical and the submissive in my head. "Scratch my back" - that was a pleasant (but practical) surprise. "Do you want to shave my legs?" to which I did thank her profusely when we were done.

I am tired of dissembling, so I won't not say that.

Wonder if she'll ask me in private what I want for father's day. Because if she does, I'll answer, one of these. Because I'm tired of dissembling. Not like I'd expect her to do anything about it, but as far as I'm concerned, now that the subject is no longer taboo, she's going to end up hearing what's in my head. [Not sure about all that, just trying it as a possible theory]

But I'm not going to push this noodle either. At least not right now. Maybe just doing these things will get us somewhere. Or maybe it won't, in which case something else will have to happen.

A couple of caveats: I think I'm kind of depressed - something I discover when I notice that I don't have any desire to do anything. Even sex. Even writing this blog entry, which I've been thinking about for a couple of days has taken this long to do.

Usually cooking is therapy for me; I intend to do more of that this afternoon.

Also cleaning up my desk, which makes me depressed just to look at it.

Another caveat: I think I'm almost disfunctionally obsessed with this whole thing. It's hard not to be since I've been fantasizing about it for the last 40 years. But it can get in the way of life and work. I'm trying to figure out how to make it not do that.

OK, tiny little deliberate steps to the future.

Encouraging Signs

I'm sorry to have left things on such a bleak note, since, aside from being incredibily busy, the less dramatic parts of our WLM seem to be falling in to place. I have a need for acknowledgment that is at the root of this dynamic for me, and I know that. That's still something of an issue. But taking a step back, yesterday was an interesting day.

We were IM'ing and considering getting together for lunch. Her exact words:

"Wanna come home for lunch?"
"Let me put this another way..."

To which I responded, of course,

"As you wish"

As I've said, the idea of her using these little verbal formulas is not attractive to her; I don't know how she feels about me using them (guess I should ask; my guess is that she doesn't care), but I think they're good disciplines.

The evening was quite different from what we had expected - I had work to do (which is unusual), and she did three different cooking projects (that's called "fun" around our house...) At the end of the evening, she said "I'm tried, I'm going to bed." At which point two things happened:

I got up from work to make sure the bedroom was prepared for her (which, trivially, means turning on her light and setting our her toiletry supplies)

And she left a large number of dishes un-done in the kitchen (though she did a lot of tidying up and running a load of dishes). Dishes have always been my responsibility, so this isn't so different from what would have normally happened, except for the conversation about it later.

One her way upstairs, she thanked me - I inferred that was for preparing the bedroom, to which I replied, of course, "My pleasure" (which it really was; have I mentioned how pathetic it is that in some senses the most pleasant moment of my day is doing that stuff for her?).

And when I came to bed, she apologized for leaving all the dishes. To which I could honestly say, "Thank you for letting me do them." The idea that she would feel comfortable enough to do what she wanted to do (cooking projects) and not worry about the aftermath when she got tired, is exactly the luxury I'm hoping to provide her. Not "I'm such a bitch, I get to be a thoughtless slob" but "I have the luxury of doing what I want, and a loving husband who delights in giving me that luxury." At least that's the direction I think we're going.

Finally, this morning we were trying to schedule a complicated weekend in the future, and she had a plan, which I messed up by having creating another outside commitment. She just said, "You make the calls and arrange that weekend. It's your problem." She alluded to this afterwards in a way that made me think that it was a conscious choice/experiment to see if she could unload a task that has been annoying her. That was thrilling - of course now I just have to figure out how to resolve the gordian knot of the weekend, but I'll figure something.

All of this results from a long talk we had on Sunday, which seemed to have few practical effects on Monday, but which may be bearing longer term fruit. I'll try to remember to post about that soon.

Another Whine, I'm Afraid

Frankly, I'd rather whine on the blog than risk messing up this tender little shoot of FLR that I'm attempting to cultivate. I say "I'm attempting" because at moments like this it seems pretty clear that this is all in my head. So if it's not, we need to communicate better.

I was thrilled when my beloved got home last night. I missed her just the way I used to when we were new at this, and that was bittersweet. I can grasp at straws that as she was walking in to the house, arms loaded with stuff, she said "There's a bag and a backpack in the car." Not an order, not even a request, but I could take it that way and did, happily. But by the time I got back for a second trip for the other stuff, her arms were loaded with junk for her second trip. So much for expectations. I did get to help though.

Somewhere in the process while I was getting the computer unpacked and the dinner made, she unpacked her bag in the bedroom, so it was my unpleasant surprise to find that when I finally got upstairs. So much for expectations.

This morning's routine was knocked off-kilter by her commitment to make sandwiches and drinks for an affair. Her commitment, I did it since she had been out and mentioned that she'd been stressing about it. There were some pleasant moments last night as I was figuring out how to make 10 gallons of drink and she was reading a magazine, but it was slender consolation for the suitcase thing.

By the time I got the sandwiches done this morning (I would have made them last night but she suggested they'd be fresher if made this morning, and I've finally learned not to disagree on points like that), she had made the coffee (which maybe was our "gateway service", so though nice, that hurt. So much for expectations.

And I head the clothes washer going and casually asked our daughter if she'd started a load. As she said she hadn't, I know my beloved has. I swear, there wasn't even enough clothes to make up a load, so I'm frustrated. I'm NOT going to get in to this passive aggressive if-there's-one-piece-of-clothing-then-do-a-load thing. So much for expectations.

Frankly, in the context of an FLR that was "working", I don't think any of this would be an issue. I expect we're still going to be a team, and there will be times when things work best when she picks up what wouldn't otherwise get done until later. But right now, I need (yes, I need) some kind of acknowledgment of what she's doing. Even something like "Here's your coffee, I figured you couldn't get to it" communicates the expectation that I make the coffee. Rather than "Here, I'm a little out of practice." I suppose there might have been a snappy rejoinder to that which acknowledged an expectation, but I'm not good at snappy rejoinders.

I've never been comfortable with submissive male bloggers' posts where they parse their wives' statements - "She said please" or "She didn't order me, she asked me" types of things. But now I think I get where they're coming from. It's about the expectations, not the words. It's about the acknowledgment of what's going on. It's about communication and what means what.

Glad to have a blog where I can vent. We'll talk about our relationship this weekend, and by then this little rant will have cooled a lot, which will be a good thing.

But the happy homecoming, though happy, has been a little more difficult for me than I expected.

Jamie

The Bicycle

A friend of ours fell off her bicycle the other day and injured herself badly enough to end up in the hospital. When I mentioned this to my beloved (who's away), she recalled the number of people we know who have done themselves damage on bicycles and wondered if riding was such a good idea.

I love riding my bicycle.

Was she implictly asking me to give up my bicycle? Would I?

As for the first, I don't think I'll ever know. She certainly didn't say as much.

Would I? Not the way things stand right now. I'm enjoying the forums over at www.SheMakesTheRules.com quite a bit, and they've included a thread on "What makes this real for you" - asked by a woman, lots of replies from men.

Until I get some sense that this is real for her - some sense that she's willing to expect me to give up something and she'll recognize it not just in that moment, but in some way on an on-going basis, giving up something that important would just make me crazy: "Is this all in my own head only?" "Am I just making myself miserable?" etc.

Because if I am, and this is "light recreation" for her, then I'll need to engage in a whole different way. Perhaps that's all it will ever be for her. But I think it's too early to tell where we are yet.

Sure will be nice to have her home. Only two days, but who's counting...

Learning about service submission

This last week seems to have been about doing things. I've spent a couple of nights on the bills (I said it was complicated), and gardening, and laundry, all of which have not been part of our normal routine for me to do, so sort of qualify as "service." Actually, I've been feeling bad about the bills part and the laundry part because there's no reason why I haven't been doing those for years except that I could get away with it.

There's a rationalization for everything, in this case that my beloved works at home so it's easier for her to keep after that stuff, but as I've started to do these things, I'm not sure I buy that explanation.

What I have found out is that service submission is much more of a "mind set" than it is a specific set of tasks. There are the normal routines (like these household things), there are things that I do for her - precious few and I treasure them: taking care of her cell phone, wallet, and bag, all of which she often does herself. The only thing I really get to do regularly is the vitamin thing and turning on her bedside light - pretty minor.

And there's being attentive to what she wants. She doesn't make this easy. This morning in the wee hours when she was leaving for a one-week trip, it was "I was wondering whether the tape was upstairs." Not "Get me the tape", not "Could you please get me the tape", not "I was wondering if you would get me the tape." I'm getting better at translating comments like "I was wondering if the tape was upstairs" into things to jump on and do right away. It is somewhat satisfying, but at a fundamental level, not so much, because it forces me to wonder if this is still all in my head - if this is an arrangement of one person: me.

Oh, and a fourth category: things I have no idea if she even notices, like the fact that her wallet always has money in it, and the cars always have gas in them. Or the fact that when she gets up to go in the wee hours, I get up too, make the coffee, carry the bags out to the car etc.

We still haven't figured out what Ms. Rika's "accepting from a position of dominance" actually works out to be in real life.

We have another talk in our future, when she gets back. It *won't* be "Hi honey, you're home. Let's talk about submission." But within a day or two, or I think we'll drift off to a place that doesn't work so well. I am happy to do the service submission things. But I need some acknowledgment of what is happening here.

Pretty much anything she asks if I can do, I respond with "As you wish." But as I mentioned above, she seldom asks. And that's still all in my head.

What I need is...

What I need is...

What surprises me is that I don't know exactly what I need. Some acknowledgment from her that this is happening. Unprompted by me. In a way that I perceive of as meaning something to her.

This may be impossible. This may never happen. I might be able to grow to be OK with that.

There are subtle changes happening around the fact that my time is hers to dispose of, that I'm trying to be around to just make life easier for her. There are random moments when it works: when I'm working on something I'd rather not be doing and she's reading a magazine. But they are few and unacknowledged.

She is also demands perfection in a way that I don't know that I can ever achieve. If I've left the laundry in the washer, to be air dried later, I'm just as likely to come home and find it laid out and done by her. On the one hand, there are only so many minutes in the morning. ON the other, I suppose I could get up early and get there before her. But that's our most intimate time, and I won't give it up, truth be told. If I come home and go upstairs before cleaning the kitchen counter, I'm likely to come down and find her doing it. If I leave a case of oil in the car to remind me to change the oil, I'm likely to find it in entryway.

I can aspire to be better at these things, but I don't know how much better I can actually do.

And now she's away for a week, so the rhythm of things will change. I suggested (I think only once) that she might think about a "honey-do" list for while she's away, but she didn't find time to make one up. I tried not to resent that, even though she mentioned it. She mentioned minor garden maintenance, and suggested she might think of something while she's on the road - I'll be bitterly disappointed if she doesn't, but I don't expect her to.

I think I have myself dialed back to the point that I'm not bugging her. I'm trying as hard as I can. The extent to which I raised this at all yesterday (for example) was to note, as we were in bed, that back-rubs are always on offer. Her response: "I'll have to figure out what my equivalent of a back-rub is."

And I think if we proceed quietly and slowly at this pace, something may happen. Certainly it has in the sex department (more on that in another post). Maybe it will in the "we communicate about this and I feel validated as the the submissive" department as well.

Another blog bites the dust

RJ's blog "Under her control" is gone. Which is a pity, because in his last post, "Appreciation", he said some things I really liked:

I appreciate my wife. She has time and time again listened and accepted me for who I am... She has always listens to me tries to keep an open mind about things. I think she, at least on some level, grasps my need to serve her... My wife and I have talked a lot lately. We have covered a gambit of topics and have discussed the workings of our WLM in detail. I love the feeling of finally being able to tell her what I feel, no matter how embarrassing it might be.

All statements that I can subscribe to.

I can only wish them well. I know from experience that this is complicated.

Some Notes on Some Comments

Both 's' and Ms. Rika have been generous with their comments. I meant to respond, but like I said, I've been busy.

Regarding Small Satisfying Surprises, 's' commented

While you're at it, you might try putting the toothpaste on her toothbrush for her.

Actually, I did. And my beloved, who hates having stuff done for her, I think, replied, "No, I'll pick which toothpaste to use, so I'll do it myself." I'm trying to finesse this by reducing the toothpaste brands down to one in the bathroom (I was the person motivating the second brand - I can give that up - sheesh - is this too much information or what!) So maybe someday we can revisit this. But it won't be for a long time.

Things to look forward to.

And the pitiful part of it is, doing that stuff for her, putting out her vitamin, putting away her cell phone, etc - these are the high points of my day. Why? Because there's a part of me that wants to serve her that's been skulking around underground for about 40 years, and it's incredible that it can see the sunshine. The last couple of times out we got whacked pretty hard, with nights of crying on both of our parts and (mild) psychiatric drugs and therapy and it was so not fun. All of which probably improved the success potential of the current venture, but who knows by how much...

's' also commented on I'm Not Very Good At This, pointing out that when she does something that I thought I was supposed to do, the only appropriate answer is "Thank you." Or perhaps no comment at all - If I thanked her for plugging in her cell phone, I'm pretty sure she'd take it as nagging. For more general household stuff like the laundry, I might get away with it.

But it breaks my heart to see her do this. Because it's either "I'm not thinking about this arrangement, it doesn't exist for me" (which is what it probably is), or it's the passive-aggressive approach that Ms. Rika mentions in her comment on the same post. That comment is so so right on the mark that I want to figure out some way to share it with my beloved. (Which sort of makes me want to share the blog with her, but fortunately, my conscious mind forcefully reminds me what a bad idea that would be.)

When it comes to doing the kitchen counter (one of those things that just needs to be done occasionally), it would make my day (literally) if she'd just point that out rather than doing it. I realize that her just doing it is likely to make me better at anticipating her needs and wishes because it hurts so much to see her do it. But I do need the interaction too.

I think the danger is that we arrange this so we never have to interact about it - she never has to acknowledge what it is we're doing, so she can remain in denial because face it, it's uncomfortable for her. I've tried to present it in the most comfortable possible way - I what can I do to make your life easier - and it's still uncomfortable for her. Either she's going to work through that discomfort (and I'm willing to help in any way I can short of not doing this, which I think we've established I have to do), or I'm going to end up in either the "stealth submission mode" (which I'm pretty sure I don't have the intensity of imagination to keep up indefinitely), or we're going to stop and I'll go slowly nuts again.

Wow, I wasn't expecting to go there when I started writing. Maybe things will improve.